I agree with all those points. I tend to lean Terry's way too. And maybe they're not all that far off...I could have misunderstood what I thought Don was saying.
What sticks out is that he seemed to make a distinction between all who are saved versus those considered the Bride. The only difference I see is everyone up until the Rapture versus those during the Tribulation. He made some point about only those full of the Holy Spirit who had given their life to Jesus deliberately would be the Bride and those others saved (category of innocence) would not be the Bride even though they are saved.
Maybe we can't know the details because it's all kind of an argument from silence, as the Bible is not clear.
Thanks for letting me bounce it off you! I may just decide to not worry too much about it. :)
I love Don’s work, and have a big fan of his for over ten years now. But the same was with Jack Kinsella, I didn’t agree with 100% of everything he taught either, however, we agree on enough to not let that be any hindrance. It usually fell on the completely speculatory things that as you said, the Bible is largely silent on.
I lean Terry James’s way regarding children and the Rapture. As far as them not being in the “Church,” I don’t know how that will all shake out. I think given the manner of their physical salvation (ie Rapture), they would be included. Just like the children who died as children in the OT were likely taken to Abraham’s Bosom, they are included with the OT Saints. Granted, this is all speculatory, however, I believe God grants those who can’t make a decision for themselves, or, isn’t old enough to understand, to be in a category of innocence, like Adam and Eve before the fall.
Agreed. We worked with many of the least of us, adults mainly who were left as wards of the state, from an early age. One was Gilbert. after 70+ yrs institutionalized, and Never speaking hardly a word at all. He began to speak "There's a house over the hill, Im going to live there. You cant go there, but I am" 600 staff were amazed Gilbert is speaking! For the next week He said even more, " I see angels all around" and then finally in the last 5 hours, he hugged my wife tightly quietly his goodbye, "I see Jesus coming down the ladder to take me' He died peacefully in his wheelchair. THIS WAS THE PINNACLE OF HIS LIFE. One could say he was born for just this... GOD CAN USE ANYONE
Aside from the fact no one knows who wrote it, or when, or where the author was quoting from, there are about 30 doctrinal errors and inconsistencies with the book of 1 Enoch, which of the three versions, is the least error-prone.
1:1 Implies restoration during the tribulation - not congruent with scriptures.
1:8 In conflict with the doctrine that peace was made at the cross. Also, in the last days, tribulation will increase for the righteous - this "verse" seems to dispute that.
2:2-3 Appears to contradict 2 Pet 3:3-7
5:4 Is an admonition to some unknown party - this is very irregular relative to the scriptures (i.e. authentic ancient writings by God-fearing Jews)
6:3 Semjaza seems to be listed as the leader of the angels, which is not scriptural
6:3,8 None of these angels are mentioned in the Bible
8:1 Azazel isn't even listed in 6:8 as one of the angels that fornicated with women
8:3 Araqiel and Shamsiel aren't listed in 6:8 either
10:2 Enoch allegedly wrote about Noah, even though the Bible teaches that Enoch was taken up to heaven years before Noah was born.
10:4-6,12 Implies angels can be bound & hid in holes under rocks. This is contrary to scripture.
10:8 Ascribes all the sin of the fallen angels to one named Azazel - not scriptural.
10:15-11:2 Seems to imply that permanent restoration took place after the flood - clearly not true. It seems the true author of this book confused scriptures pertaining to the future restoration.
13:5-6,14:4-5,7 Implies fallen angels can't talk to God - this contradicts Job. Also implies that angels were repentant, but weren't received back by God - very strange doctrine.
14 Gives a very strange description of Heaven that conflicts with many scriptures
15:8-10 Very strange doctrine about "evil spirits" proceeding from unredeemable giants
17-18,21,23 Gives a very strange description of the earth & universe which is clearly not true. Also alludes to the ancient model of astronomy that held that there were 7 stars (the closest planets) that burned like the sun (they don't.)
19:3 Discredits all other prophecies about the consummation of the ages.
20 Lists strange angels not in scripture, and incorrectly assigns the roles of Michael (the warrior) and Gabriel (the messenger)
21:7-10 Seems to contradict Biblical descriptions of the present & final judgment places for the fallen angels
22 Contradicts the Biblical descriptions of past, present & future dwelling places for the righteous who die
32:2-6 Seems to imply the Garden of Eden was still in existence after the Flood
33:1-2 Says Heaven rests on a foundation that is at the Eastern edge of the earth
33:3 He claims he counted the stars & individually mapped them, which is impossible scripturally (& scientifically)
34 Says the winds come out of a "portal" at the Northern edge of the earth
36:3 Says the stars come out of portals at the Eastern edge of the earth & move West
38:5-6 Contradicts Daniel & other prophecies about the Millenial Reign
39:1-2 Very strange implications here about the "seed" of angels dwelling with men at the end... this contradicts the scriptures
40:7 Talks about the "Satans" - plural, different than the Bible, who gives that name to only one fallen angel. Also, implies Satan can't stand in God's presence, contrary to Job.
40:9 Once again mixes up the roles of the 2 Archangels & adds more names in. Michael's role in scripture is related to conquering nations & fighting spiritual wars, while Gabriel's relates to bringing messages & visions to people.
41:1-2 Says the Kingdom of God is divided - it's not & can't be scripturally. Also describes sinners being repelled from a mansion, which is also not scriptural, unless you look at a parable Jesus told, which was not intended to be literal.
41:4-5 Says the sun, moon, winds, etc. are stored in chambers & released at appointed times.
41:6-7 Implies the sun & moon move opposite of each other
43:1-3,44 Very weird model of the nature of stars & lightning
47:4 Says God requires the blood of the saints... very strange
51:1 Says Sheol & Hell will give back to the earth, which isn't scriptural - also Hell is a NT term, not OT
51:2 Disputes the Biblical doctrine that we are chosen. (We don't have to wait until Christ's return to be chosen.) This isn't scriptural.
General: Seems to imply Enoch came back down to earth after being taken up to Heaven, which is not scriptural. (Source)
Thanks for your reply. I also don't believe in apostles and prophets today either, only those in the bible. My husband had the same reply about the clock. Everything seems very surreal these days and my heart is heavy for the things to come for those left behind. I hope many will find your book to explain what has happened. I will be passing out a few.
I was Pentecostal at the start, so I know what they mean to be speaking in tongues.
Also was a mission/relief worker for a few yrs. Heard a story of an American who went to do missions where no English was spoken. He had a an indigenous English speaking guide however.
One day he came upon a resident and the missionary and he had a good conversation, regarding salvation etc.
When the guide heard this he asked "what language were each of you speaking in, the missionary said English.
The guide said I know that man and he only speaks our native language.
Each understood the other. This truly is speaking in tongues.
I guess you could say I’m cessationist in the sense that we no longer have prophets and apostles going around doing miracles or needing things like speaking in tongues inside church services.
However, I also believe that God can still speak to us thru dreams and visions. If that were my dream, my take away would be that time is near at hand (your stone clock) and that our nation’s days are numbered.
Dream question- I had a dream in 2013 I cannot forget and another in 2020 similar. Both vivid and as if I had last night. To the point, the first was our nation was attacked by surprise and Noah's ark appeared in the sky at the same moment and the second was a spiritual clock, set in stone, being lowered from heaven and was at the level between short and tall skyscrapers. I have had others, not many, that provided guidance and happened as dreamed but were about personal life andh not national. I would like to think I am grounded in sound doctrine and realize many seek signs, etc. My KJV says no man can see God and live and I believe it. Can you please address why so many are claiming to have dreams or is it because they are subjective (BSN)? I do believe what I saw will happen just as the previous did.
Hi, I just became a member today and wanted to work on my profile, but nothing Happens when I place a photo or change the name. Would anyone have any idea why?
Good question. From a content creator, I know it can be done as many here have it already on their profiles. You can email it to me and I can assign it to your profile, but I think when you sign on initially, it gives you the option.
This is on the Torah and Christianity. I have heard that some dispensationalists believe that the Torah is no longer relevant. I am confused because then I have to ponder why God would bother to include it in His love letter to us, and continually speak of it if it wasn't relevant.
I believe that when Jesus says to obey Him, He is speaking of obeying ALL of God's Words and not just those spoken in the "New Testament" written after He came in the flesh. Salvation is by grace through faith, I firmly believe and understand that. While the Law doesn't save us, it does keep us obedient until the end. For me, keeping the law requires me to walk in the Spirit while sojourning in this great big world God created until He calls me home.
My question will be twofold, do you believe that the law is still a vital part of a believers walk with Christ? If not, why?
Hey Lexy, I believe the New Testament is replete with admonishments for us to turn to Christ and not trust in our own strength, but in His.
He was the only one in all of creation who kept the law perfectly, and if we place our trust and faith in Him, His shed blood covers us every bit as much as the blood covered the doorposts during that first Passover in Egypt and kept them safe from the angel of death.
Aside from the historical aspects, I think the Law (all 613 laws) was included in Scripture to show us we couldn’t keep it. If you add in Jesus’ clarifications that it was not just deeds, but thoughts as well, which condemn us, there is no one apart from Him who could keep it.
Hey! So, I had never heard of Don Koenig until you mentioned him in a recent post. I've since read a few of his entries and like what he has to say. I was reading some stuff that I hadn't thought about before and wondered if you wanted to address it.
It was some comments on one of his posts about children being raptured or not and a reference to 1Co 7:14. And then he specified a difference between those who will be saved versus those who are the Bride. I had never thought to break it all down like that before. Terry James wrote a compelling post on Rapture Ready not too long ago regarding all children being raptured. Don seemed to think that wouldn't be true. I was wondering which way you think. Also, I am baffled by the meaning of 1Co 7:14. I've never really put any study to it. And, I, of course, realize that those saved after the Rapture during the Tribulation won't be considered the Bride of Christ. It had never occurred to me that children likely won't be either, even if they are raptured with believing parents. Makes sense, but I've never really studied the minutae of these details.
I agree with all those points. I tend to lean Terry's way too. And maybe they're not all that far off...I could have misunderstood what I thought Don was saying.
What sticks out is that he seemed to make a distinction between all who are saved versus those considered the Bride. The only difference I see is everyone up until the Rapture versus those during the Tribulation. He made some point about only those full of the Holy Spirit who had given their life to Jesus deliberately would be the Bride and those others saved (category of innocence) would not be the Bride even though they are saved.
Maybe we can't know the details because it's all kind of an argument from silence, as the Bible is not clear.
Thanks for letting me bounce it off you! I may just decide to not worry too much about it. :)
I lean Terry James’s way regarding children and the Rapture. As far as them not being in the “Church,” I don’t know how that will all shake out. I think given the manner of their physical salvation (ie Rapture), they would be included. Just like the children who died as children in the OT were likely taken to Abraham’s Bosom, they are included with the OT Saints. Granted, this is all speculatory, however, I believe God grants those who can’t make a decision for themselves, or, isn’t old enough to understand, to be in a category of innocence, like Adam and Eve before the fall.
Question: Why is the book of Enoch not in the Bible?
Thanks for your reply. I also don't believe in apostles and prophets today either, only those in the bible. My husband had the same reply about the clock. Everything seems very surreal these days and my heart is heavy for the things to come for those left behind. I hope many will find your book to explain what has happened. I will be passing out a few.
I was Pentecostal at the start, so I know what they mean to be speaking in tongues.
Also was a mission/relief worker for a few yrs. Heard a story of an American who went to do missions where no English was spoken. He had a an indigenous English speaking guide however.
One day he came upon a resident and the missionary and he had a good conversation, regarding salvation etc.
When the guide heard this he asked "what language were each of you speaking in, the missionary said English.
The guide said I know that man and he only speaks our native language.
Each understood the other. This truly is speaking in tongues.
I guess you could say I’m cessationist in the sense that we no longer have prophets and apostles going around doing miracles or needing things like speaking in tongues inside church services. However, I also believe that God can still speak to us thru dreams and visions. If that were my dream, my take away would be that time is near at hand (your stone clock) and that our nation’s days are numbered.
Dream question- I had a dream in 2013 I cannot forget and another in 2020 similar. Both vivid and as if I had last night. To the point, the first was our nation was attacked by surprise and Noah's ark appeared in the sky at the same moment and the second was a spiritual clock, set in stone, being lowered from heaven and was at the level between short and tall skyscrapers. I have had others, not many, that provided guidance and happened as dreamed but were about personal life andh not national. I would like to think I am grounded in sound doctrine and realize many seek signs, etc. My KJV says no man can see God and live and I believe it. Can you please address why so many are claiming to have dreams or is it because they are subjective (BSN)? I do believe what I saw will happen just as the previous did.
Hi, I just became a member today and wanted to work on my profile, but nothing Happens when I place a photo or change the name. Would anyone have any idea why?
This is on the Torah and Christianity. I have heard that some dispensationalists believe that the Torah is no longer relevant. I am confused because then I have to ponder why God would bother to include it in His love letter to us, and continually speak of it if it wasn't relevant. I believe that when Jesus says to obey Him, He is speaking of obeying ALL of God's Words and not just those spoken in the "New Testament" written after He came in the flesh. Salvation is by grace through faith, I firmly believe and understand that. While the Law doesn't save us, it does keep us obedient until the end. For me, keeping the law requires me to walk in the Spirit while sojourning in this great big world God created until He calls me home.
My question will be twofold, do you believe that the law is still a vital part of a believers walk with Christ? If not, why?
Thank you!
Hey! So, I had never heard of Don Koenig until you mentioned him in a recent post. I've since read a few of his entries and like what he has to say. I was reading some stuff that I hadn't thought about before and wondered if you wanted to address it.
It was some comments on one of his posts about children being raptured or not and a reference to 1Co 7:14. And then he specified a difference between those who will be saved versus those who are the Bride. I had never thought to break it all down like that before. Terry James wrote a compelling post on Rapture Ready not too long ago regarding all children being raptured. Don seemed to think that wouldn't be true. I was wondering which way you think. Also, I am baffled by the meaning of 1Co 7:14. I've never really put any study to it. And, I, of course, realize that those saved after the Rapture during the Tribulation won't be considered the Bride of Christ. It had never occurred to me that children likely won't be either, even if they are raptured with believing parents. Makes sense, but I've never really studied the minutae of these details.
Wanna tackle it?